New/old audio PC - Which OS? (edit - any way to fix cubase 5.1 timing issues?)

[G40]

Currently I have an almost up to date machine running Windows 10 which I use for general duties and running Reaper, plus multiple machines running Windows 98SE so I can run much older stuff (I'm using Cubase 2.8 lots - and I can't get it to work in XP or anything later - also various versions of Cakewalk and other bits and bobs).

I've found myself with a bunch of spare older machines, a couple of P4s and a Core Duo and am thinking about a midway point retro machine - maybe treat it to an older RME card and try running Reaper plus some older stuff like Sonar, Reason, Project 5 etc. It probably won't ever see a network or go online, so I'm not too bothered about security/updates. I like working offline as there are no distractions and Windows 10 is way too "connected" for my liking.

I'm torn between using XP and 7. I like some of the features in 7 but I'm also wondering whether older=leaner=better. I suspect any of the machines I have will run XP nicely, the later Core Duo was built for 7 so I know I'll have no issues with drivers.

Any thoughts?

[Project5er]

Plenty of thoughts....I run XP pretty much exclusive & don't much like anything else but tried it all...

I DO HAVE 2 windows 10 machines that are newer that a neighbor gave me for free for doing favors to their property whilst away...

Can't really stand that OS, It is truly spyware & I never let either 'hook-up' ever...I only have one machine hook-up to internet via CABLE (no wi-fi here, no cell towers near at all) which is an old Dell D820 with XP...10 of my 12 machines are XP...

Windows 7 is OK & is somewhat like XP but uses quite a bit more resources plus there are still the 'ADMIN' bullshitz, in XP none of that you are FREE to do anything unrestricted...

Using XP you can use low RAM amounts & be just fine, my machines anywhere from 1 GB to 4 GB RAM & mostly I try to find ones with nvidia graphics as I do 3D stuff too & like to run the rare Nichimen Mirai & others which work perfect in XP...

For audio work most old 'media center' editions are pretty choice...I recently bought an old Toshiba Satellite P25 as such off ebay that was in MINT condition with big 17 inch screen & original discs for 40 bucks plus ship...This laptop 10 lbs built real good with 3 fans...Just has a single core but is 2.8 GHZ so absolutely no problem for audio apps...Has nvidia card but only 32 MB RAM so not so good for some graphics apps...

You can really dress XP up & there are so many cool utilities for it that make it way more wonderful than it is...Once you do this sort of thing & really customize XP up the way you will never be able to in windows 7-10 you will be ruined for life as using newer windows you would rather eat your own vomit instead...

I can never understand why some just leave their XP machines basically stock...Opinions vary I guess...

Anyways if you decide to go XP I can help you with cool utilities...

Everything I post on here running fine on all my XP machines...

[G40]

I'm thinking I'll install XP on the faster Dell P4 machine below - should be a pretty nice machine - maybe save the IBM/Lenovo P4 (specs also below) for a win98 setup... which should fly.

[foksadure]

(I'm using Cubase 2.8 lots - and I can't get it to work in XP or anything later - also various versions of Cakewalk and other bits and bobs).

Any thoughts?

About running 16bit software without using virtualization, there's a new technique that's worth a shot, OTVDM :
http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/otvdm.html
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/windows-dev-appconsult/running-16-bit-applications-on-windows-10-64-bit/ba-p/1671418
https://github.com/otya128/winevdm

I had a peek at it last night, and our beloved Cubase 2.8 or 3.05 do start on my Win10x64 computers... until the dongle check (real or "emulated"). Seems it can't find the cubase.386 setting and vxd which seems okay to me in the OTVDM folder.
There's hope!

About your CPU of choice, remember Win9x does not support multicore CPU.
That means the best P-III, P-4 or AthlonXP you can find will be more than enough.

I've an old P-III 1000 (w/ISA slots) dual boot Win98SE/Win2K tower laying around, but I'm currently using a dual-boot Win98/XP NEC Versa M320 laptop with a P-4 2.0GHz CPU that has all the old peripherals (serial, parallel, integrated floppy, CDR). Works like a charm despite the unavoidable 9x BSOD now and then. Even class compliant USB audio device are working on both OS, which is a pleasant surprise. On XP, the network card allows access to LAN ressources (e.g. NAS) for backups or data transfert.
Internet access is blocked at the router level for this machine's IP, which is no big loss since it can't decently do any decent web browsing anyway given how websites or webapps have become overbloatted and sluggish.

[G40]

Yep, both machines I'm talking about for XP and 98 are P4s. I might put Linux on the Core duo and use it for general office stuff.

I had the same experience running Cubase 2.8 in XP - it boots up OK but can't find the dongle/crack.

[Project5er]

Interesting I find that much computerized equipment I see at veterinarian & doctors offices still use XP OS...If it works don't fix it!!

[G40]

Currently installing 98SE on the slower of the two P4 machines. I've been using Cubase 2.8 a fair bit, but having installed it on old laptops the limitation of not having a full-sized keyboard (or PCI slots) is proving an irritation. I'm hoping to experiment with a few different sound cards... So, for now, XP can wait.

I think it would be nice to have a section on this forum where users can post info about retro setups that are working well for them. I'd be glad to contribute.

[G40]

Well the P4/98 machine is cruising nicely running an ancient version of Cubase. I'll have a go at an XP machine some other time...

[foksadure]

Nice setup! 

Those early 2K's IBM Thinksomething were overengineered, built like tanks and a pleasure to maintain.
I should have saved one from work when I had a chance, since they had 98 and XP drivers.

[G40]

Actually this one (it's a thinkcenter E50 8772 - 78G) was a pig to install 98 on - would only boot into safe mode until I followed advice here https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=41065 - specifically "Disable all 32-bit protected-mode disk drivers".

I then managed to find the correct IDE driver and it now seems to be working OK, although there are a bunch of unknown devices in Device Manager. I didn't manage to find a full set of drivers for the machine anywhere, for any OS.

(edit: I take it back, XP drivers but not windows 98, are available here: https://download.lenovo.com/eol/index.html)

Only irritation it that although it now has USB disk support (I installed nusb36.exe) external drives oddly show up twice, with two drive letters assigned.

Oh, and sometimes it seems to momentarily hang before disk operations. Still, generally speaking it's a speedy and practical machine.

[foksadure]

Ours were 8303 Thinkcentre M42 (i845G chipset) that were certified for a bunch of Operating Systems (much like the Thinkpad R42 laptops):
https://www.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi-bin/ssialias?htmlfid=872/ENUSAG02-0406&infotype=AN&subtype=CA&appname=skmwww

SOFTWARE REQUIREMENTS:

Operating System Software:  NetVista M42 systems are tested for
compatibility with the following operating systems.

           Windows XP Professional
           Windows XP Home Edition
           Windows 2000
           Windows NT 4.0
           Windows 98 Second Edition
           OS/2 Warp 4.0 and higher (select models)

The drivers section at IBM/Lenovo support website was an inextricable mess with unfriendly filenames, but you could try with drivers for these M42, depending on the PCI device ID.

[smilesdavis]

win 3.1 on a certified machine
win 95 on a certified machine


you can always upgrade mmx233 from there

[G40]

Ours were 8303 Thinkcentre M42 (i845G chipset) that were certified for a bunch of Operating Systems (much like the Thinkpad R42 laptops):
https://www.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi-bin/ssialias?htmlfid=872/ENUSAG02-0406&infotype=AN&subtype=CA&appname=skmwww

SOFTWARE REQUIREMENTS:

Operating System Software:  NetVista M42 systems are tested for
compatibility with the following operating systems.

           Windows XP Professional
           Windows XP Home Edition
           Windows 2000
           Windows NT 4.0
           Windows 98 Second Edition
           OS/2 Warp 4.0 and higher (select models)

The drivers section at IBM/Lenovo support website was an inextricable mess with unfriendly filenames, but you could try with drivers for these M42, depending on the PCI device ID.

Thanks. This machine has an SIS 661 chipset, I may do a bit more digging for drivers but for now it seems to be working well enough for my purposes.

My G40 laptop is also P4/XP era but (if memory serves) that was a breeze to install 98SE on, and it runs very well indeed (dual boot XP/98SE). I can't remember the details but google tells me it has an Intel 82852GM chipset, and it seems lenovo/IBM provided 98SE drivers... Just a shame that a laptop keyboard is less than optimal for Cubase, and that I can't put any PCI cards in it...

[smilesdavis]

just go with certified for... desktops

love my win 3.1 and win 95

[foksadure]

WinVDM at work under Windows 10 x64

[chrisNova777]

Ive only ever run windows 10 on 2010 hardware and it was not a good experience.
i just had to drop back from win10 to win7 on this machine im typing on now.. it was BSODing 10+ times a day..
i dont think windows 10 really runs well on  any hardware from before 2016

[G40]

Out of interest the P4 hasn't had a lot of use recently as I've been playing with Cubase VST 5.1 on a G4 mac (under OS 9.2.2). I'm considering putting a SCSI card in the P4 machine and using it as a sample editing machine - I like Sound Forge much more than any mac audio editing software I've played with and as it has a floppy drive I can also read TX16W typhoon floppies, akai floppies etc.

I failed to get a MOTU midi timepiece parallel interface to work on it, which was a shame because MIDI only Cubase and non-usb MIDI was my end goal... not sure whether the interface is toast or the issue is with the PC. I was never quite happy with the Win98 install given the unknown devices in device manager. Maybe I'll have another play with it, might try the MOTU on another machine first though.

The Core 2 machine is running Reaper etc. under 64 bit Windows 7 so nicely that I got rid of the i5 Windows 10 machine. IMO 7 is a sweet spot in terms of usability vs bloat, I can do without the internet and rubbish but it feels modern in a good way.

I think my current ideal would be windows 7 for a "modern" 64 bit audio recording/mixing workstation, Mac OS9.2.2 for VST equipped Cubase, and a dual boot Win98/XP machine for running old PC stuff... oh, and I'm quite attached to my Amiga - nothing else quite makes the same noise!

As usual I'm spending more time fiddling with old equipment and computers than I actually am making music.

[chrisNova777]

As usual I'm spending more time fiddling with old equipment and computers than I actually am making music.

hey thats the whole reason for this site to exist.. to help get that technical mumbo jumbo stuff done asap and get on with being creative

[G40]

As usual I'm spending more time fiddling with old equipment and computers than I actually am making music.

hey thats the whole reason for this site to exist.. to help get that technical mumbo jumbo stuff done asap and get on with being creative

Ha, well I've been spending a ridiculous amount of time recently fiddling with old computers, and very little time making music with them. Luckily I have another outlet as a bassist so I am still "doing music".

On that note I decided to install XP professional SP3 on the IBM P4 mentioned above after failing to get an Adaptec SCSI card to work under 98SE. It seems much happier, the (parallel port) MTP AV seems to be working fine, as does the SCSI card and an Echo Layla 20 bit audio interface. All nice kit which I picked up very cheaply.

I've started installing software. Couldn't get Cubase 5.1 to work but Sonar V3 seems very happy. I used it back in the day (started with Cakewalk 6) but always found later versions of Sonar a little cluttered and complex for my needs, if brilliantly solid. I'm wondering if there is a better option out there? My priority is MIDI sequencing of external synths (JV1080, DX11 etc), I'm planning to use audio functions to record these back in as audio for further processing, probably mixing partially out of the box. I probably won't be using softsynths, but I'd like something that will be slick about controlling patches, drum maps etc without too much effort.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[joethelion]

Hi G40,
CWPA9 may suit ... also earlier H2O editions of Cubase/Nuendo.

ATB, jtl

[glumark]

Hi G40,
CWPA9 may suit ... also earlier H2O editions of Cubase/Nuendo.

ATB, jtl

Emagic Logic and Sound Diver work well with external synths. I once used it with my synths. I also used Emagic's AMT-8 and Unitor midi interfaces to connect synths. I had 3 of them for a total of 24 inputs and outputs for all my synthesizers. But it was a macintosh with Mac OS 8.6 and Logic 4.8.

[chrisNova777]

well i reorganized the boards so that its a bit consistant between modern-vintage
with the first big four first... Cubase.. Logic.. ProTools.. Digital Performer...

[G40]

I've got Sonar 3, CWPA 9, Logic Platinum 5.5.1 all installed.

The machine is running nice in general, SCSI is working and ReCycle and Mesa are talking happily to my S2000. The MOTU midi timepiece and Echo Layla both installed fine.

All the above DAWs seem to be working OK. Annoyingly Cubase is the package I'm happiest working in but timing is lousy with either the Layla or MOTU midi interfaces. Sonar and Cakewalk are much better timing wise, Logic is also better although since I never managed to figure out how to set up environments it's currently only playing the GM synth built into Windows. I'm sure I could get past that, but...

Any tips for getting Cubase to play in time? It's VST32 5.1 r1 (zone release).

[glumark]

Annoyingly Cubase is the package I'm happiest working in but timing is lousy with either the Layla or MOTU midi interfaces.

I had MIDI Timepiece AV, Cubase was also out of sync. It was a long time ago, and I did not have such opportunities to find out the reason. I gave up MIDI Timepiece and started using Logic with Unitor/AMT. Logic with Unitor/AMT worked perfectly.

As far as I know, Steinberg Midex works perfectly with Cubase.

I also remember that MIDI Timepiece AV problems are specific to Windows. On Mac OS they worked well, but I used Unitor/AMT.

[G40]

CWPA9 may suit ...

Good shout.

Had a play with it last night. It’s not a version I ever used extensively (back in the day I went straight from 7 to Sonar) but the UI is still very familiar. I have to say, it works brilliantly and just like always, rarely does anything to frustrate. It’s much cleaner and easier to navigate than Sonar 3, which seems to have a huge amount of unnecessary options and buttons visible. It might take me a while to remove my Cubase “muscle memories” from the workflow, and CWPA is not pretty but it’s making music and doing exactly what I need it to.

Annoyingly Cubase is the package I'm happiest working in but timing is lousy with either the Layla or MOTU midi interfaces.

I had MIDI Timepiece AV, Cubase was also out of sync. It was a long time ago, and I did not have such opportunities to find out the reason. I gave up MIDI Timepiece and started using Logic with Unitor/AMT. Logic with Unitor/AMT worked perfectly.

As far as I know, Steinberg Midex works perfectly with Cubase.

I also remember that MIDI Timepiece AV problems are specific to Windows. On Mac OS they worked well, but I used Unitor/AMT.

Hmmm… Cubase is equally jittery with the Layla. Cakewalk’s MIDI timing seems solid with the MOTU.

[chrisNova777]

6track on windows with the MTPAV your parallel port may not have supported the proper ECP/EPP protocol mode for the parallel mid interface to work properly.. or may not have been configured properly.

changing from the MTPAV to the AMT8/unitor units is changing from a parallel to a serial midi interface


re the cubase zone release.. are u running that on windows XP? maybe it has a conflict with Service packs?

[G40]

re the cubase zone release.. are u running that on windows XP? maybe it has a conflict with Service packs?

Yep it's XP SP3. Possible, who knows? XP is a must on this machine because the mobo wouldn't play nice with 98 (couldn't get it to recognise the MTP-AV) but I suppose I could try an earlier version of XP. I'm reluctant to mess with this setup now though - I think better to accept that I'm using Cakewalk and go with it - it's not without it's plusses and BITD I loved it, I'd just got used to arranging in earlier versions of Cubase recently.

Besides, could just as easily be that it doesn't like my motherboard. I have to say I've never had any luck with any cracked PC version of Cubase VST - nor do I know anyone who used it BITD. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who finds it usable! It runs much better (and looks nicer) on my G4 so perhaps I'll pick up a multi port USB interface for that as a plan B and pit the Cubase mac against the Cakewalk PC. 

[chrisNova777]

i personally would stay away from sp3 and try again
sp3 came out around 2008 long after that zone release.
best to use the version of XP that was current at the time of the release in the nfo file

[glumark]

Besides, could just as easily be that it doesn't like my motherboard. I have to say I've never had any luck with any cracked PC version of Cubase VST - nor do I know anyone who used it BITD. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who finds it usable! It runs much better (and looks nicer) on my G4 so perhaps I'll pick up a multi port USB interface for that as a plan B and pit the Cubase mac against the Cakewalk PC. 

I remember that I got a licensed Cubase 4 either in 2006 or 2007. Around the same time I met Reaper - then it was still a free version 0.xxx. And I saw that Reaper does everything for me that Cubase 4 does, with a tiny size and no means of authorization.

I sold Cubase 4 and since then I've been mixing everything in Reaper (it works fine on Windows XP, by the way). And of course, I also use my favorite Reason, but I do all the sound engineering work in Reaper. With the help of Reaper Actions and the Reaper community, I've automated a lot of my audio work.

[foksadure]

Any tips for getting Cubase to play in time? It's VST32 5.1 r1 (zone release).

Just get a Midex 8 or 3 (and update Cubase VST to 5.2PB).

IMHO, VST5 external MIDI goes from pretty unusable without, to much better timing even than Cubase 2.8/3.05 with.
The improved timing quality is consistent all through the Cubase line from SX up until Cubase 6.5 (Win7/10x64).

https://gearspace.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1401374-modern-sequencer-same-better-timing-atari-st-4.html#post16437792

LTB works by offloading the time sensitive events to the Midex MCU (Cypress EasyUSB FX hardware USB controller and 8051 CPU).
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php/topic,625.msg11167.html#msg11167

The Midex8 can crash once in a while though. Nothing a power cycle and computer reboot can't solve, since the unit loads its firmware from the driver after USB enumeration.

[G40]

Any tips for getting Cubase to play in time? It's VST32 5.1 r1 (zone release).

Just get a Midex 8 or 3 (and update Cubase VST to 5.2PB).

IMHO, VST5 external MIDI goes from pretty unusable without, to much better timing even than Cubase 2.8/3.05 with.
The improved timing quality is consistent all through the Cubase line from SX up until Cubase 6.5 (Win7/10x64).

https://gearspace.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1401374-modern-sequencer-same-better-timing-atari-st-4.html#post16437792

LTB works by offloading the time sensitive events to the Midex MCU (Cypress EasyUSB FX hardware USB controller and 8051 CPU).
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php/topic,625.msg11167.html#msg11167

The Midex8 can crash once in a while though. Nothing a power cycle and computer reboot can't solve, since the unit loads its firmware from the driver after USB enumeration.

Thanks, I’ve been looking out for a Midex8. Does the 5.2PB update help improve timing with other interfaces?

In the meantime I’ve actually been getting some stuff finished in Sonar 3. No issues, timing is good and I’ve got used to the clutter, although I still miss the Cubase MIDI flow. I’m using VST 5.1 to convert stuff programmed in 2.8 and 3.05 and mixing it using Sonar’s audio functionality (also the odd VST or DXi synth).

[foksadure]

Does the 5.2PB update help improve timing with other interfaces?

I don't think so.
Not sure the 5.2 is mandatory though since the updated mros.dll is also included into the unsupported Midex x64 drivers.

I’m using VST 5.1 to convert stuff programmed in 2.8 and 3.05

Cubase SL/SX can import the old *.all/*.arr file format too. There's an article about it at Steinberg's:
https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/115000075750-Converting-Cubase-VST-songs-ALL-ARR-into-CPR-format
https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/206335684-Serial-numbers-and-installation-codes-for-older-Nuendo-Cubase-and-HALion-versions
You'd need an eLicenser dongle though, if going legit that is.
The good news is that you can buy a 2nd hand dongle with an "old" Cubase Pro licence (say a 6 or 7 one), and run on a all the previous versions, from SL/SX up to the one you own. Got a 7 that I updated to 10.5 during the seasonal upgrade discount period, but when I feel the need to run Cubase on my main Win7/10x64 desktop PC - which TBH is not very often - I just use SX3 or 6.5 basically.