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Author Topic: Applications crash checking for DX plugins (Solved)  (Read 2401 times)

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Offline dawful

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Applications crash checking for DX plugins (Solved)
« on: September 10, 2023, 04:04:01 PM »
I'm have an issue where any/all DX plugin capable applications crash when starting up. Those that display their initiation status, at the time of the crash, show that they are scanning for available DX plugins. If there are no DX plugins available (removed), the applications will load successfully.

This is on Windows 98. I've tested with DirectX 7 through 9. I've duplicated this issue on another machine. It isn't one, or a few,  plugin(s) that are causing this issue. It is any DX plugin. Programs bundled with their own in-house DX plugins crash.

The issue seems causes by the audio device driver being used. One machine, while using a VxD driver, functions without this issue. The other machine does not have VxD drivers for it's audio device. So it started looking like the issue was with the use of WDM audio drivers; however I can use a WDM USB audio device, along side the VxD device, and not get the issue.

I have two different WDM drivers, for the machine that "does" have a VxD driver. One is generic (DirectSound emulation) and the other is vendor (Direct Sound fully supported). Both WDM drivers have the issue.

I would gladly use the VxD drivers; but ASIO, WDM/ks, and DX-ASIO do not work with VxD drivers. At best I can use Steinberg MME-ASIO or Cakewalk Wavpipe. Both have higher latency, and are not compatible with all applications.

Hoping someone has seen this issue before. I don't know if there is a fix. Any one have any ideas?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2023, 10:58:11 PM by dawful »

Offline OGF

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2023, 05:10:27 AM »
Strange problem...

Are you using Win98 SE?
What's your mainboard/chipset and which exact driver version for it have you installed?
What's your sounddevice that you are talking about and which exact driver are you using for it?
Have you tried on a fresh win install on the same machine with only dx, chipset drivers, gpu drivers installed?
What's your GPU and which driver are you using?
Does dxdiag.exe give you any errors?

Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2023, 10:06:43 PM »
Quote
Are you using Win98 SE?
No, it is Win98FE. Not enough WDM support?

Quote
What's your mainboard/chipset and which exact driver version for it have you installed? What's your sounddevice that you are talking about and which exact driver are you using for it?
Realtek A3.64 through A4.06 for WDM (DirectSound Emulated). The VxD is also Realtek 4.05 (DirectSound Emulated). Sigmatel C-major 5.10.4643.0 WDM (DirectSound Accelerated). This is a Laptop mainboard, with Intel915 chipset.

Quote
Have you tried on a fresh win install on the same machine with only dx, chipset drivers, gpu drivers installed?
Yes. I've just been living with it, knowing that I can build a machine without the problem.

Quote
What's your GPU and which driver are you using?
Does dxdiag.exe give you any errors?
DxDiag crashes on DirectShow. On a second run, I am given the option to skip DirectShow. All audio tests/status is fine. The video driver is Vbemp9x. However, this issue remains while using the default VGA driver.

Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2023, 10:09:15 PM »
@OGF  Even though it looks grim, thanks for the reply.

Offline OGF

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2023, 03:12:33 AM »
Please download and use SE, FE is a unstable piece of shit in every way and for many drivers SE is requiered to run correctly.
https://winworldpc.com/product/windows-98/98-second-edition

Which laptop model and when came it out? Could be bad compatibility with win98 because its too new.

And if unterstood correctly, you are using a onboard soundchip? It could be the problem that your soundcard is not fully direct x compatible or something like that. Im impressed that it supports ASIO at all.

If everything fails, i would try a external solution. (USB/FireWire audio interface)


Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2023, 08:47:52 PM »
Which laptop model and when came it out? Could be bad compatibility with win98 because its too new.
It is too new, IntelICH6 2005.
Quote
And if unterstood correctly, you are using a onboard soundchip? It could be the problem that your soundcard is not fully direct x compatible or something like that. Im impressed that it supports ASIO at all.
Well, it isn't vendor ASIO. It is ASIO4ALL. It is the Vendor driver that allows ASIO4ALL to work; as it is WDM and supports DX acceleration.
Quote
If everything fails, i would try a external solution. (USB/FireWire audio interface)
Yes, I'm using a USB device now. It works well enough. I am on the lookout for a Win9x USB DSP/MIDI setup. But I'm in no hurry.

Offline chrisNova777

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2023, 07:35:11 AM »
i would reccommend you find a machine with a supported chipset !
but in lieu of that, at least try installing offical or unoffical intel chipset drivers for 915 or ICH6 (or whatever your using)

https://www.philscomputerlab.com/intel-chipset-drivers.html
https://retrosystemsrevival.blogspot.com/2019/06/intel-ich-2345678910-chipset-drivers-9x.html

OFD made some great comments directing your attention to the critical factors involved... i understand why OGF is saying win98FE is a piece of shit (lol)
but i dont agree with his comment about win98fe 100% because there are some software that will not work on win98SE and actually only work on win98FE 
even to this day if u dont have the right drivers installed on a windows os its gonna be making tons of errors etc
« Last Edit: September 16, 2023, 01:14:58 PM by chrisNova777 »

Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2023, 06:28:35 PM »
Yes, I understand that many dislike Win98FE. My main intention was to see if anyone had ever heard of this issue before. Perhaps had made a system change, and experienced the issue occurrence. That way I might know the exact issue. Win98FE, as a blanket statement, is more broad of and answer then I was looking for; even if, undistilled, it is true.

To the letter, Microsoft says Win98FE's audio and WDM support is inferior. I would guess that the issue, I am/was having, is somehow related to WDM support not being complete enough. That and the fact that the DAW(s) themselves operate differently upon detecting the host O.S.. But these limitations are almost superficial.

I have parts/cases laying around, and appropriate era model laptops. However, this particular laptop is fanless. Since I am recording audio, in the same room as the laptop, this is important to me. Also, be it freakish as it may, I prefer Win98FE.

I could dual boot this machine with XP; but I have noticed enough performance difference (Sonar2.2XL/GuitarRig2) to stay on the 9x platform. I still have the option to use SE/ME. However, I endeavored to solve the issue anyway. And, I have.

I had forgotten to mention that the Sigmatel DX accelerated driver was from 2009; It is meant for XP/Vista/7. Note, that the Realtek Win98FE WDM driver also had the issue. The only WDM driver that did not, was Win98FE's own USB audio driver. The 2009 Sigmatel driver is enabled to function, in Win9x, via Rloew's WDMEX.  But this hasn't prevented the solution. I also have improved USB audio.

First off, ASIO4ALL is not supposed to work with Win98FE, anyway. But, it does. The main issue is USB. ASIO4ALL can not handle the use of input and output, simultaneously, over Win98FE USB. According to the driver's author, it isn't supposed work on Win98FE, at all. I imagine the author just didn't want to deal with cries for support, had he listed Win98FE as supported. I am using ASIO4ALL version 2.14. That is the last one that will work.

For the internal AC97 Sigmatel device, with the NT based driver, I am able to use ASIO4All fine. With  Sonar2.2XL and FL Studio 5, I must set KernelEx to run the application(s) .exe in XP compatibility mode. But the option "Don't use these settings in child processes" needs to be checked. This seems to also work, in a handful of other applications. Some variations may need to be discovered.

I didn't have complete success with Orion 7. The DirectX plugin issue was solved. Audio output was great, but no input. I have also had problems getting Orion 7's input to work, in correct environments.

The USB audio device is more useful, then the internal AC97. It is a Behringer Xenyx Q502USB. Worst case scenario, I ran the AC97 in/out to the Q502's RCA in/out. Then I could use it as an Anolog mixer/preamp. I was fortunate, however, and Ploytec's ASIO USB driver (ver 2.2.3) works with the Q502. With that driver, I have both in/out ASIO (simaltaneous). Without the workaround, it also causes the DirectX plugin issue.

On the way to getting things working, I also discovered that ASIO2K works on Win98FE (WDM drivers only). It is meant to work on Win2k and XP. I tried two versions, Behringer ASIO2KS 1.-01 and ASIO2KS 0.90-2 Beta. Both worked, but the latency was not as low, as I have now.

Depending on resolution, I am getting between 7 and 11ms latency.

The work around also allows Sonar to use it's internal WDM/KS, with Win98FE. But the latency was still higher than I have now.

This is still no professional rig, by any standards. I am still capped at 48000khz and 16bits. Until I can fork out the cash, for a $150-600 piece of excellent legacy gear (Win98FE compatible and VxD), this will have to do. Even then I'll be capped at 96000khz and 24bits; plenty enough for me.

Thanks for the suggestions and input. I knew that this had a high improbability of resolution. But, sometimes fate favors the mad.

Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2023, 06:30:56 PM »
Can I edit the subject title to (Solved), or must a Mod do that?

Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2023, 01:27:32 AM »
I was able to update to Ploytec's 2.6.1 driver. It works when upgrading to it, but not when installing fresh. The 2.6.1 driver has a much smaller pgusbwdm.sys file. The 2.2.3 file has Win98FE WDM support, and gets left behind during the update.
This info isn't really useful, unless you are a Win98FE user and have the right USB device.

Ploytec used to license their driver out, to vendors like Behringer. I lucked out, Behringer still uses some of the same internal audio chips. Behringer had their own version, of the driver; but has since dropped it, for ASIO4ALL and ASIO2K.

The issue with the Ploytec driver, is that it wants to be the system's only ASIO driver. So if you want to use ASIO4ALL, with a different device, the Ploytec driver needs to be absent.

Something special -> 00.6E.89.6A.51.E3.33.AA.7B.0D.59.65


Offline foksadure

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2023, 12:25:28 PM »
The USB audio device is more useful, then the internal AC97. It is a Behringer Xenyx Q502USB.

QX2442USB here, works out of the box on a WinMe(98lite)/XPTrust 2003 laptop as an USB Audio device.

I'd tend to believe Behringer used the same generic 2 channel USB audio DAC on all his Q/QX small mixer series.
It's the USB102CH part, and when looking at the VendorID in the driver properties, it's recognized as a Texas Instruments Burr-Brown PCM2902 Audio Codec.
https://fccid.io/XJVF09130
The PCM2902 was also found in their cheap USB audio interfaces (eg. UCA222, UM2, ...).

There's a link to the Ploytec v2.8.40 x64 driver in this thread at Gearspace:
https://gearspace.com/board/music-computers/1316473-behringer-asio-driver-lower-end-interfaces.html

The last post says Behringer since switched to its in-house functional clone CoolAudio (v2902), which is most likely the same thing with a different ID.

I was able to update to Ploytec's 2.6.1 driver.

Thanks! I don't do audio ITB, but I'll try to install this one. I'm curious to see if it has an effect on MIDI timing in Cubase VST5, when using the ASIO audio engine as the reference clock instead of the MROS one.

Edit: no changes in timing, but the Ploytec ASIO driver works and latency is obviously much better than with Windows Millenium generic USB audio driver.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 03:47:14 PM by foksadure »

Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2023, 05:48:39 PM »
Thanks! I don't do audio ITB, but I'll try to install this one. I'm curious to see if it has an effect on MIDI timing in Cubase VST5, when using the ASIO audio engine as the reference clock instead of the MROS one.

Edit: no changes in timing, but the Ploytec ASIO driver works and latency is obviously much better than with Windows Millenium generic USB audio driver.

The state of ME's WDM driver support is much better then Win98FE (what I am using). You might be able to use the 2.8.24 version (maybe you've already tried?). It's doubtful that higher samplerates or bits are included, but I haven't tried. I think they are all working over USB1.1 bandwidth, even when used over USB2. The highest possible settings, under USB1.1 limitations, seems to be 48000kHz @ 24bit. If 2.8.24 added more bandwidth, that would be good to know. Especially, since the Windows driver is maxed at 48000kHz by 16bit.

ASIO4ALL should also work, for the Windows USB audio driver (often only partially working with Win98FE). Ploytec wants to be the only ASIO driver; so testing ASIO4ALL would require removing Ploytec. I'm not sure ASIO4ALL would be any benefit; I've had some software not work with ASIO4ALL. But it is good to have options. The last ASIO4ALL to work with Win9x is v2.14. -> https://asio4all.org/downloads/ASIO4ALL_2_14_English.exe

I'm glad it's of use to you. Latency was a real bummer, till I found it.

Offline foksadure

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2023, 06:35:41 PM »
It's doubtful that higher samplerates or bits are included, but I haven't tried. I think they are all working over USB1.1 bandwidth, even when used over USB2. The highest possible settings, under USB1.1 limitations, seems to be 48000kHz @ 24bit. If 2.8.24 added more bandwidth, that would be good to know. Especially, since the Windows driver is maxed at 48000kHz by 16bit.

The PCM2900/2902 codec chip is USB 1.1, and caped at 16-bit 48k.
So any extra resolution bit or up-sampling would be done in software, at the driver or the host level.

https://www.ti.com/product/PCM2902
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm2902.pdf

Quote
On-Chip USB Interface: Fully Compliant With USB 1.1 Specification
16-Bit Delta-Sigma ADC and DAC
Sampling rate:
DAC: 32, 44.1, 48 kHz
ADC: 8, 11.025, 16, 22.05, 32, 44.1, 48 kHz
On-Chip Clock Generator With Single 12-MHz

On WinME, I used v2.6.1, which has a specific setup exe for Win98.
On the XP side, the v2.8.24 seems okay.
Same installer design as the one of the infamous Akai EIE Pro USB audio interface, which InMusic/Akai Pro must have licensed from Ploytec as well.

Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2023, 11:22:22 PM »
Same installer design as the one of the infamous Akai EIE Pro USB audio interface, which InMusic/Akai Pro must have licensed from Ploytec as well.
I went through the list of HW/VEN IDs in the .inf file. They do list device names next to them, but that doesn't cover everything. I noticed "Alesis Mixing Desk" in there.

The Lexicon Omega and Digidesign Mbox are in there. I've been tempted to look at Mbox drivers, betting they licensed too. I've researched the Omega already, I know they licensed. It was too bad the Lexicon Lambda wasn't listed in there (USB powered and doesn't get as hot as the Omega).

I finally got a chance to look up your mixer. Very nice. I can see why you were hoping to improve the situation.

In my opinion, the RME Hammerfal/Multiface is top notch. But it doesn't have the external mixing abilities, boards like yours have. It does provide a software mixing board. I think it also provides a few hardware FX (probably thinking of some EMU PCMCIA or USB). Anyway, that is where I'm hoping to land, while in Win9x land.

Thanks, for the update on the 2902. That is also my chip. The 2900-2904 and 2906 are also supported. When I bought the Q502USB, few years back, I had though it supported higher samplerates and resolution. Tricky Tricky, they got me. I'm sure I wasn't worried.

Sorry, it didn't improve MIDI.

Offline foksadure

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2023, 10:08:41 AM »
Nothing to write home about the QX2442USB: it's about the same than your Q502USB, just with more channels, busses and decent FX. Budget mixer.

MIDI timing is already very good on this system, thanks to a couple of Midex interfaces used with legacy Cubase (VST5/SX2).

http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php/topic,3083.msg11155.html#msg11155
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php/topic,625.msg10927.html#msg10927

You seem going through a lot of trouble getting Win98FE to run with your devices, while you could use 98SE/Me, and streamline it with 98lite.

https://www.litepc.com/98lite.html

Getting rid of all the Internet Explorer bells and whistles yet retaining the WDM, FAT32 and USB support leads to a fast, responsive and stable system, even using a mechanical 2"5 HDD (mSATA feels just marginally faster). Still got the occasional BSOD, though. Win9x FTW.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2023, 01:01:37 PM by foksadure »

Offline chrisNova777

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2023, 05:39:01 PM »
Can I edit the subject title to (Solved), or must a Mod do that?

you should be able to edit the subject title of the thread now

Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins (Solved)
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2023, 10:59:32 PM »
Thank You. I noticed your announcement, the other day. Just forgot about tidying up.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2023, 02:31:05 PM by dawful »

Offline dawful

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Re: Applications crash checking for DX plugins
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2023, 03:52:24 PM »
You seem going through a lot of trouble getting Win98FE to run with your devices, while you could use 98SE/Me, and streamline it with 98lite.

There are some rather "nitpicky" reasons I have stayed with Win98FE. After streamlining both FE and SE, with 98lite, I was more pleased with what FE had left over. I am running the O.S. in ram, with 1.5Gb of ram, FE was down to 250Mb. With SE, if I remember correctly, I was down to 350Mb. Any further cutting, on either of them, and I lose functions I want to keep. Both could be cut down more, with Drivespace3, at a small cost to the CPU and conventional memory; drivespace cannot move to higher memory when the drive is int13, which the ram drive is. I wanted to save on the CPU; but the conventional memory loss, causing Wolf3d to not work, was unacceptable :)

98lite can alter the shell of Win98. The Shell with FE is already more like the Shell of Win95. Tugging out IE integration is sufficient on FE.

After all the updates, and newest usable files from SE, ME (and some from SDK/DDK examples), FE is rather stable. It seems the only "audio" WDM funciton I am missing, is stable synchronous input/output over USB. It works sometimes, but not in every instance. Most notably when using ASIO4ALL. Some applications work with it, others do not. The USB ASIO driver totally fixes this issue.
It is my guess, that the Directsound hardware mixing, that I am not supposed to have, came with using an earlier version of DirectX 9. But that could also be where I managed to gain the strange issue, that bore this thread. I don't know what gave me multichannel audio support. Maybe some of the FE audio limitations are before a full update?

Files like wdmaud.drv and ks.sys are still the newest FE versions.

There are other reasons for using FE, but they are not audio related (even more nitpicky/nerdy).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2023, 01:19:01 AM by dawful »